If you have had a similar experience with Jannawi I’d love to hear from you. Contact Me, Mr Ex
Jannawi is a specialist child protection service at Wiley Park. Their 2016/7 Annual report indicated that five members of their ten member board are representatives of The Uniting Church. The Uniting Church has faced over 2500 reports of child sexual abuse during the recent (2017/2018) Child Abuse Royal Commission. That’s 2499 more than I’ve had 🙂
I’m not suggesting that anyone at Jannawi is connected with the sort of child abuse allegations made at the Royal Commission. I have seen that Jannawi enjoys a solid reputation among some legal professionals.
My lawyer advised me that I would hurt my case if I spoke negatively about Jannawi to my judge from the Family Court. That annoyed me as Jannawi were, in my opinion, causing emotional harm to my children.
I thought that they should change her job title from Judge to “One who doesn’t make decisions based on the evidence presented before her in a courtroom but has in fact preconceived notions about many things”.
Though I’ll admit it doesn’t roll off the tongue quite as easily as Judge.
The Principal at my kids school also recommended Jannawi. Jannawi are like the Bill Cosby of Child Protection. That’s Bill Cosby in the 90s. Everybody loves them, but they’re hiding a secret.
I think it’s fair to remind ourselves that they are as fallible as anyone. A child protection service that’s run in part by people from a church that has had over 2,500 allegations of child sexual abuse levelled at it in the 2017/2018 Royal Commission doesn’t look good on paper.
Jannawi are no better in real life.
My ex started taking our children to Jannawi around February 2017. She did so against my wishes and without my knowledge. My children were sworn to secrecy. They told me about it after they had been going for 5 weeks.
Check their website at www.jannawi.org.au
And ask yourself “would I want my children attending this place?”.
Note: In late 2019 Jannawi changed their web site. It’s front page used to contain 3 images of what appeared to be abused children. The website looks alot more welcoming now.
After Lea suggested that our children were “oversexualisd” to our pediatric specialist it was decided that they should have the “Protective Behaviours” talk. That talk takes about 30 minutes.
I had offered to take the children to any Child Psychologist near the suburb we lived in at my expense. Instead Lea chose to drive 45 minutes to Wiley Park, a suburb best known for drive by shootings, to take our children to Jannawi.
I sensed something was up and it had nothing to do with mental health or protective behaviours.
The level of secrecy involved in admitting my children to Jannawi was new to our family dynamic. This sort of thing was unprecedented.
At the same time that they started going to Jannawi, my children all developed separation anxiety. I firmly believe that the newfound secrecy in our family dynamic highlighted, for the children, the level of acrimony between their parents. resulting in separation anxiety.
One symptom of the condition was that they demanded to sleep in the same room as me. To this day they still do.
From that moment onward one of my children couldn’t bear to have me leave the room to do anything without following me.
If I go downstairs to use the recycling bin I still often find her silently following me, like a shadow in the dark.
Within the first few weeks of my children attending Jannawi the counsellor asked my two daughters (aged five & six at the time) direct and leading questions. Specifically “has Daddy touched you inappropriately?”
Both of my daughters told me about this in the week after I found out about Jannawi. Asking a child a direct and leading question is forbidden in child counselling because it can easily result in giving the child a false memory. Jannawi were clearly trying to plant a false memory in my daughters’ minds of me touching their private parts. In a nutshell, Jannawi were trying to get my daughters to make a statement suggesting that I had been sexually inappropriate with them.
My daughters advised me that they had told Jannawi the answer was no.
My daughters told me this after they had been attending Jannawi for about five weeks. It was the thing that they remembered most. Clearly they found that line of questioning very disturbing.
Personally I think asking a child a question like that about the child’s father is a form of child abuse in itself.
Asking those questions of my daughters places them in danger. If they ever were attacked by a perpetrator, that perpetrator could use the fact that they have been asked direct and leading questions in his or her defence.
The perp’s defence would be that they may have false memories as a result of the direct questioning. Asking those questions can assist a perpetrator avoid prosecution. It placed my daughters in unnecessary danger as well as upsetting and confusing them.
I wrote numerous letters to Jannawi to get my children out of there to no avail. (View: My Letter to Jannawi)
FACS provide funding to Jannawi. I wrote to FACS (read: My Letter to FACS) about Jannawi’s treatment of my children and their unethical conduct. FACS wrote back essentially saying they can’t be bothered looking into it and it wasn’t their problem (read: FACS Reply Letter).
Jannawi refused to stop counselling my children. They refused for eight months to tell me anything about my children or their counselling.
Ethical psychologists will not counsell a person if they’re already getting counselling from another psychologist. My children attended Jannawi most Tuesday afternoons for around 18 months. In that time, I pleaded with Lea to allow me to take our son to a competent psychologist to get treatment for his OCD and possible ADHD.
Lea used Jannawi as a reason to refuse me the right to get treatment for my son.
After meeting with Jannawi’s Director and concluding that she was either a thickhead or acting like a thickhead for the purposes of the meeting (details below) I started taking my children to a proper child psychologist.
As Jannawi had already tried to sully my reputation by asking my daughters direct and leading questions I wanted a second, more qualified person to counsel my children to provide a counterpoint to whatever bullshit Jannawi were putting together for The Family Court.
Individual counselling wasn’t ethical, so I arranged for family counselling. I offered to let Lea attend the weekly sessions with me, or on alternate weeks to me. I wanted our children to see that we could operate as a family unit or close to a family unit. Lea refused.
Jannawi and Lakemba FACS share a close working relationship. Lea and Jannawi managed to get an investigation by FACS underway.
FACS (Family And Community Services) looked into Leas’ reports of my daughter’s alleged sexualised behaviour, that my son had threatened to commit suicide at Jannawi (it was more of an emotional outburst than a genuine threat) and her report that an 9 year old boy had been watching MA rated video Games (seriously, read the page on FACS). (read: FACS Meeting Notes July 2017) FACS found nothing amiss.
In my opinion, Jannawi had tried to plant a false memory in my daughters’ minds so that they could get their friends at FACS to launch an investigation into suggestions that I had been sexually inappropriate with my daughters.
Perhaps because my children told me about Jannawi earlier than they expected, perhaps because I fought back so quickly after finding out about Jannawi’s methods and perhaps it was due to just plum good luck, but Jannawi never achieved that.
At this point I probably sound like some wacky conspiracy theorist.
Remember that Jannawi admitted my children “for treatment” in secrecy, being fully aware that I didn’t want them to go there.
The whole operation was kept confidential, which I believe damaged my children emotionally.
I might sound paranoid but they were certainly up to something that they wanted hidden. Lea had never been to South West Sydney in her life, seriously. Suddenly she’s driving 45 minutes down Old Canterbury Rd to get counselling that we could have had in the suburb we lived in. There was something strange about that.
When FACS did launch an investigation, they interviewed my son at his school without my knowledge.
To this day two of the teachers at the school refuse to talk to me. Had they found reason to interview my daughters about sexual misconduct on my behalf the damage to my reputation at the school would have been off the charts.
These interviews and their reasons are meant to be confidential. I suspect that they’re not.
People and teachers will still gossip. That could have been catastrophic. Under the stress such gossip would have brought about I may have agreed to allow Lea to take the kids to Newcastle, as was her plan. If that happened someone else would now be raising my three children.
Lea almost succeeded.
Lea admitting my children to Jannawi was the reason I commenced action in The Family Court.
That, in hindsight, could well be the reason that Lea’s plan failed. There’s no way that Lea would be able to take the children to Newcastle while a Family Court case was underway. The Family Court process cost us both between $30,000-$50,000 each.
FACS found nothing, there was nothing to find.
At the conclusion of the FACS investigation, it should have been obvious that Lea’s claims in her Affidavit and presumably to Jannawi were largely false and baseless.
That didn’t stop Jannawi denying me my rights as a parent. FACS continued to support the notion that my children should attend Jannawi.
I continued to object. My children remained at Jannawi for a year after I was cleared by FACS.
My children attended Jannawi for around 18 months. All three children had counselling for 20 minutes each, every week, with the exception of school holidays etc.
Anyone who has had counselling knows that you need a 1 hour a session, usually weekly. A 20 minute session is a waste of time.
Their separation anxiety never improved. None of my children’s emotional issues have improved. One of my daughters has developed a serious aversion to counselling.
It would be interesting to see if Jannawi have EVER refused a woman seeking treatment/counselling for her children as they felt that the “victim” was being disingenuous.
Is there a protocol for checking? Do they have any checks and balances to ensure that they’re not being gamed and consequently wasting resources that real victims need and also wasting heaps of taxpayers’ money?
Ms. J (not her real name), the Director of Jannawi, claimed that they were “treating” my children because they were suffering trauma after witnessing my alleged acts of DV.
If you read my diary entries and their comments below I found after about two meetings spanning three hours with the Director Ms. J I was unable to get a solid idea of what act or acts the alleged trauma resulted from or how the trauma manifested.
As far as I can tell, there are no laws or government policies that say an organisation can or can’t ”treat” your children against your wishes without providing a clear and proper explanation as to why.
My children first attended Jannawi in February 2017. In June 2017 the head counsellor wrote a letter with a different story to Ms J. It didn’t mention that my children were traumatised at all. The letter did suggest that Lea was traumatised. Lea’s attendance didn’t concern me. Here’s an excerpt from the counselors letter dated 13th June 2017 outlining the treatment my children were receiving against my wishes.
This excerpt was taken from the Counsellors letter dated 13th June 2017.
This hardly seems like a good reason to treat my children against my wishes or to refuse to communicate with me regarding what was going on at Jannawi.
Lea used Jannawi and the knowledge that psychologists will not treat one patient who is already being treated elsewhere to stop me taking my son to a professional to treat his OCD, and to investigate the possibility that he may have had ADHD.
In this matter Jannawi allowed themselves to be used by Lea to get at me at the expense of our son’s psychological well-being. Jannawi don’t even pretend to treat OCD or ADHD.
Lea used Jannawi to stop me getting treatment for our daughter’s separation anxiety. Jannawi and their one unethical hack counsellor have set back my son’s development by denying him treatment for his OCD for the better part of two years.
These morons couldn’t even give me a straight answer as to what they were doing or why they were “treating” my children against my will (read: My Diary Entries re: my meeting with the Director Ms J and the Letter from their Counsellor dated June 2017 below).
Letter from Counsellor
There’s no chance in hell that they could complete a proper assessment of the psychological environment of one of their patients. A situation that, I’d say, is exacerbated by their attempts to stitch their patients fathers up as paedophiles. When you present a hostile environment to the father you lose 50 percent of the potential parental information.
I’ve included a couple of the letters that I wrote to Lea while my children were at Jannawi to show how Lea used Jannawi to stop me getting psychological help for our children. They are at the end of this trail of documents.
If you want the itty bitty details read on…..
If you have had a similar experience with Jannawi I’d love to hear from you.
Contact Me, Mr Ex
My diary Entries regarding my three visits to Jannawi.
On my first day in the Family Court the judge said that I should be attending Jannawi to help my children with their counselling. That’s despite the fact that I had made it clear in the Affidavit I presented to that judge that Jannawi had asked direct and leading questions of my daughters.
These are my diary entries relating to my visits to Jannawi. They’re in italics. They’re my subjective thoughts, I never imagined I publish them but it would be remiss of me not to give it to you warts and all. It’s clear that I didn’t like Jannawi from the get go.
Counselling my children in secrecy and without my approval will do that, as will trying to plant a false memory in my daughters’ minds by asking my kids direct and leading questions.
I have placed my comments on this diary entry in red.
I initially had a meeting with the director.
Diary Entry: Monday 10th. July 2017 4.30pm Mr X attends Jannawi. I leave at 5.55pm. I have a very relaxed chat with Ms J (not her real name) . I’m invited back to attend a session on Tuesday the 25th July.
I took my children for a visit as per the Family Court Judges’ instructions.
Diary Entry: Tuesday the 25th July 2017. I attend Jannawi with my children. I am placed in the front room and ignored completely. The staff take my children away and return with my children 60 minutes later telling me nothing.
Whilst sitting in the front room I did get glared at a few times by at least one obese middle aged woman. All I could think at the time is “my tax money paid that Bitch’s food bill”. At one point they did give me a ham and cheese sandwich. I ate it despite my fears that it had been poisoned. That was the closest I came to an interaction with one of their staff. My guess is that I was not their favourite person on that night.
After the judge suggested that I attend Jannawi The Family Court Appointed ICL (Independent Children’s lawyer) advised that as I would be taking the children there on Lea’s time I should not be penalised by losing any of my time with the children as I was following the Judge’s advice. Regardless Lea would not allow me to take the children there unless she was given some free time. During the meeting Ms J, the Director of Jannawi tried to suggest that she was responsible for Lea’s decision to take my time.
I found that to be a ludicrous suggestion.
I wasn’t sure if she was plain thick or assumed that I was thick and was trying to slip one past me. When someone starts pushing bullshit like this at you in the initial stages of a meeting any goodwill is lost.
Diary Entry: Tuesday 8th August, 2017. I pick the kids up from school and take them to Jannawi. I’m interviewed by Ms J, Director of Jannawi. Ms J suggests that the decision of Lea’s to ask me for an additional two hours from my weekend with the kids is in fact Ms J’s idea and that she is therefore morally responsible for what I consider to be a selfish act on Lea’s behalf. This theory seems at odds with reality to me. I approach the subject a second time with Ms J and she is insistent that she is responsible for Lea’s decision and that I should therefore not consider the act a selfish one on behalf of Lea. I can’t fathom that an adult can suggest that they are responsible for another person’s moral decisions unless they’re following orders in the military or Police Force.
Ms J rejects the idea that lea told the children not to tell me about Jannawi. Ms J also suggests that the children may have been told that they could tell me about going to Jannawi and that perhaps it was left to them to decide. I refrain from suggesting that giving a 5, 6 and 9 year old child that sort of responsibility is in itself Child Abuse.
Here she is seriously suggesting that “perhaps” the children were told that they could tell me if they wanted to. Really? Who would tell a child to keep their attendance at Jannawi a secret and then burden a 5 year old child with the option of being honest with their father about that counselling, particularly when their counselling included asking questions about whether I’d touched their vaginas.
I also find Ms J unable to answer questions directly. She suggested that my children are still traumatised by my action or alleged actions in the AVO. I asked her if they are, do they still mention it in therapy? Ms J couldn’t give me a straight answer. I ask her twice. She went on to describe how the children express themselves in therapy. At best she was suggesting that they don’t express their trauma directly with words but I got the impression she was deflecting the question (badly) or simply had a tenuous grip on reality.
I don’t believe that my children are traumatised by my actions at all. Later this meeting I asked Ms J whether she believed that their counsellor had asked my children direct and leading questions about me touching their vaginas. Ms J couldn’t look me in the eye at this point and looking at the floor she said “no”. I asked why not and she replied something like “because your children weren’t brought here as victims of sexual trauma”. FYI if they were victims of sexual trauma they certainly should never have been asked direct and leading questions. I’m pretty sure that if someone presented as a victim of sexual assault they would have to call a JIRT team, google it. I knew for certain that they had asked those questions, my daughters NEVER speak about that stuff on a whim. After this meeting I was certain that Ms J also knew. I caught her off guard and she made up a complete BS story in, I’m guessing, an attempt to say anything but the truth. Poor bullshit artists often can’t make eye contact if you catch them off guard and they have to tell you a lie.
Later in the year FACS are trying to justify their insistence that my children remain at Jannawi. They arrange for Ms J, the Director of Jannawi, to cold call me and discuss my children in a vain attempt to get us to work together. I’m not sure how they could be stupid enough to think it was ever going to work given that Jannawi had tried to stitch me up as a sexual predator.
Diary Entry: Tuesday 24th October, 2017. Ms J rings me and tells me more about the children than she ever has in 2.5 hours of meetings. She tells me that Daughter No. 2 is all about grief and loss. In all she spent 90 seconds describing Daughter No. 2. She does not say anything about Child 1 or Child 2. End of Diary entry.
Around September 2017 I took one of my daughters to a child psychologist to see if she could get the child to recall being asked the direct and leading question.
Finding a psychologist to help you “take down” a community health service isn’t easy. I did have an appointment at a service in Edgecliff. The psychologist suggested that the whole “accuse the ex of being a sexual predator/DV perpetrator” was quite common. At 6pm on the evening before the appointment her boss rang me and cancelled the appointment as it was “not the sort of thing that we’re into”. People become psychologists to heal others not do grubby detective work.
I found another psychologist. To be honest I lied about my intentions. So did he. I had a meeting with him before he met my daughter. We both kept moving the goalposts. Eventually he agreed to investigate whether my daughter had been asked a direct and leading question. He asked my girl the same loosely worded indirect question about five times, or so he told me. She had forgotten all about it. There ended my campaign to take my case to the Ombudsman. November, 2017. Here’s a fun fact, Jannawi were writing me out of my daughters’ lives. Check out these groovy “stress cards” my daughter made at Jannawi. FYI I am extremely close to my daughter, this one is the daughter that broke the silence about Jannawi. See if you can work out which family member is being excluded from her “anti stress routine”. Given that my daughter’s emotional stress stemmed from the family separation I would have thought that was counterproductive but I don’t have a degree in Counselling Social Work from UNSW.
Here’s an excerpt from my affidavit and one from my GF about the moment the children told me that they’d been asked direct and leading questions—–.
Here’s the letter my lawyer wrote.
Here’s my letter a few days later.
My letter to FACS.
The reply from FACS.
The letter that appears above is the ONLY thing Jannawi put in writing. You know that people are on thin ice, legally speaking, when they will not place anything in writing. They never wrote back to me or my lawyer.
As you can tell by my diary notes our face to face meetings were a waste of time.
This letter is from Jannawi’s head counsellor. That woman is, practically speaking, Jannawi’s only counsellor. That’s as far as I could tell anyway.
Note in the first paragraph they indicate that Lea was definitely pushing the sexual behaviours angle. I believe that Leas’ plan was to have the children attend Jannawi due to alleged sexual behaviours, Jannawi would get my daughters to suggest that I’d touched them inappropriately and their mates at FACS Lakemba would investigate the complaint.
Lea, Jannawi and FACS could have dropped a few carefully worded rumours about me and my life in the inner west would have become unlivable. Then she’d be off to Newcastle with my kids.
Note the third paragraph where she tries to suggest that she started seeing the children after she got a referral from our paediatric specialist.
I can’t help but think that she’s trying to cover the fact that she knew that I didn’t want the children going there. My paediatric specialist cannot give permission on my behalf for my children to attend a counselling service. I never suggested to anybody that I would allow my children to attend Jannawi.
My children have been out of Jannawi since late 2018. My legal advice had been not to stir things up any more while the kids were still attending. The kids are no longer attending and I have the time now.
I am going to complain to the Ombudsman just to see what they write back. I expect the same non event that I received from FACS. The people at Jannawi are dangerous, evil and small minded. I hope that one day someone’s complaint tips the balance for these scumbags.
The final set of court orders from the Family Court regarding my children’s health include a reference that my children will never attend Jannawi again. Those orders were in writing and stamped by the court. I think it would be impossible for Jannawi to seriously suggest that they didn’t allow themselves to be used as tool by my ex to better her bargaining position. They did so at the expense of the emotional and mental health of my children. I was furious, so was my Barrister. Given that the judge appeared to be a big fan of Jannawi there seemed to be little that we could do.
If you read Chapter Four of this website and go to my second AVO, in point 7 it mentions that we knew that Our Boy had OCD as early as January 2016. He was taken to Rivendell (a department of Concord Hospital) and they medicated him. They did not treat the root cause, anxiety. Lea took him to Jannawi in Feb 2017 and he was denied access to a proper psychologist for the next 18 or so months.
Here’s an email where I’m trying to get Lea to agree to what I felt was proper medical attention for our son who has OCD and possible ADHD. Lea used Jannawi as a way of stopping me from taking him to a fully qualified psychologist to treat both his OCD and it’s root cause, anxiety.
Whether you agree with me on my ideas about the best treatment plan for our son there’s no denying that Jannawi allowed themselves to be used to deny me as say in my son’s well being.
FYI the letters OB stand for “Our Boy”.
Sent: Monday, 12 March 2018 11:25 AM
To: Lea (not her real name)
Subject: RE: School holidays APRIL
Those holiday plans are fine by me.
Regarding OB I would like to investigate whether he in fact does have ADHD or ADD or whether his inattention is due to stress as suggested by Rivendell. I have previously been present at Rivendell when you have suggested that OB is being treated for stress at Jannawi. Given that OB has threatened to commit suicide at Jannawi I feel that we should consider another facility to test his stress levels. I’m suggesting a proper psychology practice with Child Psychologists who have high degrees in Psychology from real universities. Hopefully along with the correct qualifications to treat our son which ever psychologist we choose will possess a sense of professional ethics, something Jannawi lacks. We could place OB in treatment for one on one counselling with a psychologist that we both agree is suitable. If that psychologist can treat OB so that his stress is no longer an issue we could get him tested for ADHD again.
What do you think?
This is Lea’s reply. My comments are in italics.
Sent: Tuesday, 13 March 2018 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: School holidays APRIL
Ok school holiday plans are locked in, no more changes now will be accepted.
Thanks for your thoughts about OB ongoing treatment.
In response to your questions about OB diagnosis:
- The Connar’s test, administered by Rivendell indicated OB experiences inattention and symptoms that could be ADHD;
- The view of the Rivendell team was when the results of the Connar’s test were combined with OB’s academic performance, OB’s inattention was not significant enough to medicate due to the adverse side effects of the medication;
- OB’s treatment team at Rivendell also noted, the turmoil at home could be exacerbating his inattention;
- When you voiced your concerns at Rivendell, the treatment team advised you, you could get a second opinion;
- You took OB to “The Sydney Development Clinic” for an assessment including brain scans. The report they produced gave a diagnosis of ADHD. Again it was the opinion of the assessing Doctor that OB does not require medication;
- Both Rivendell and the Sydney Development Clinic agree, the best approach is a ‘wait and see’ approach’;
- There is no need for any further testing for ADHD, he now has a diagnosis, it was physically identified on his brain scans;
- In keeping with the ‘wait and see’ approach, I have spoken with OB’s teacher and let her know about the above medical history. OB’s teacher confirmed she will get in contact if she feels OB’s school work is slipping due to inattention.
In response to your question about OB’s counselling:
- We have spent a lot of money having an independent expert prepare a family report to assist us with this, PL would have made a recommendation about OB’s counselling at Jannawi if he shared your concerns; (Lea is referring to The Family Court Appointed Family Expert. I don’t believe that his job description involved assessing whether Jannawi was sufficient or not. I didn’t think his advice was worth much anyway. He misquoted people all throughout his report. Remember Jannawi enjoy a very good reputation among legal types, just like Bill Cosby did among entertainment types in the 90s.)
- The case plan recommended by FACS was for the children to continue therapy at Jannawi; (TRUE Read the chapter on FACS, originally they wanted OB to move but Jannawi changed their mind. Remember that OB, our boy, had threatened to commit suicide at Jannawi because he was forced to go there. I’m not medically trained but I don’t se it as a great place for someone to be treated for anxiety.)
- It is not in OB’s best interest to change counsellors, OB has developed a relationship with his therapist and disrupting this relationship would be harmful to him;
- OB is currently under the care of a psychologist, psychiatrist (These people are from Rivendell, there was , sometimes, 20 weeks between visits), and a family counsellor (from Jannawi) who has a master’s degree in Counselling and Social work, (this is the same woman who asked direct and leading questions of my daughters) and this team are working well together and for OB, (this is completely untrue. The two parties involved in my son’s mental health were Jannawi and Rivendell. According to the head psychologist at Rivendell they may have exchanged 1 (that’s one, uno) phone call..ever). Rivendell were providing medication to calm his OCD and Jannawi were meant to be helping with anxiety. It was probably anxiety that caused the OCD. Rivendell provided no treatment other than dispensing drugs. I didn’t go to Jannawi after the third meeting I had with them but on a practical level I saw NO changes in my children resulting from their attendance.)
- Introducing another psychologist is the definition of over servicing. It is unnecessary.
I wanted a coordinated professional approach involving 1 hours counselling from a seasoned professional on a weekly basis. Lea used Jannawi to deny that request. Jannawi allowed themselves to be used in Lea’s power play at my son’s expense.
Here’s another series of emails where I try and get my daughter who has had a stomach ache for about three years now to see a proper psychologist. Anxiety in children often manifests in stomach aches. Again, Lea uses Jannawi to block my attempt at proper medical attention for our daughter.
If you have had a similar experience with Jannawi I’d love to hear from you.
Contact Me, Mr Ex
Here’s the last conversation that I had with Lea about Jannawi. Just in case there’s any doubt that they admitted my children against my wishes.
Our communication became eerily quiet from the moment of that last SMS. Lea took the children to Jannawi without my consent. None of my legal team bothered to tell me that as soon as they were being counselled at Jannawi I couldn’t get individual counselling for them anywhere else. Ethical counselors don’t double dip and treat a patient that already being treated.
I had no idea I was in a race. Lea won.